How TV’s favorite couples therapist, Dr. Orna Guralnik, found her interior life through music

This transcript was generated by AI and lightly edited by our team. Please excuse any typos or errors.

 

Orna Guralnik  00:00

My parents didn't know what to do with me because we were really at odds. And they forced me into therapy. But luckily, they found this amazing woman. She really changed the trajectory of my life.

 

Sophie Bearman  00:23

This is Life in Seven Songs from The San Francisco Standard. I'm Sophie Bearman. This week, I'm sitting down with a therapist -- one who has brought deeply intimate and typically private conversations to TV. Dr Orna Guralnik is a clinical psychologist and psychoanalyst and the star of Showtime's docuseries Couples Therapy, where she counsels couples on screen, and viewers get to watch their progress over the course of a season. It's a rare window into real-life sessions -- demystifying the therapeutic process and challenging the stigma around couples therapy. And as someone who has been to and benefited from couples therapy, I can say I really appreciate how Dr. Guralnik works. She's a listener, but she also isn't afraid to point out inconsistencies or push back. Here's a clip. This is from season four.

 

Other  01:38

[Couples Therapy clip plays]

 

Sophie Bearman  01:43

Dr. Guralnik joined our podcast from her office in New York City, which is why you'll hear plenty of sirens and street noise. Dr. Guralnik, thank you so much for being here. 

 

Orna Guralnik  01:52

Happy to be here. 

 

Sophie Bearman  01:54

So I want to start talking about your show, Couples Therapy, which premiered in 2019. The idea of pulling back the curtain on real couples therapy sessions and putting them on TV for everyone to see was, and is, pretty groundbreaking. Why did you want to do the show? 

 

Orna Guralnik  02:09

Well, honestly, I didn't actually want to do it first. I wanted to advise them and make sure they're not, basically, making a mess. Because that sounded like a crazy idea, and I was worried that they're basically not going to represent the profession well. So I wanted to come on as an advisor and make sure that they're doing the right thing. And then we really, like, the creators of the show,and I really hit it off. We just had, like, the most amazing conversations. And I realized these guys are amazing, and they're they're in it for the right thing. And they said, 'Why don't you try?' And it just somehow worked. And it just became this thing we're doing together that's just awesome. 

 

Sophie Bearman  02:54

I've heard you talk about how, as a psychoanalyst, you need to be somewhat -- maybe more than somewhat -- private about your personal life. What is it like then to become a public figure while maintaining those boundaries?

 

Orna Guralnik  03:07

Complicated. Complicated and far from perfect, in the sense that the people that really have to carry the burden of it are my actual patients. I mean, not patients on the show, but patients in my private practice. Because they've lost me as a completely private person. I mean, some people choose not to read or watch anything, but they can't help that, you know, their mother has seen me or or, you know, their best friend knows who I am. It's, it's -- it compromises the work to some degree. And for me personally, if I'm not worrying about the burden that my patients carry, it's not a big change. I mean, my life is my life. 

 

Sophie Bearman  03:49

Well, of course, we are going to talk about you now through the lens of the music. Your first song -- it takes us back to when you were six years old, living in Atlanta. It's Let It Be by The Beatles. So what's the story behind this song?

 

Orna Guralnik  04:02

I mean, I don't have a lot of early memories, but I definitely have a memory of going to a friend's house. There were a bunch of us kids there, and they had a record player. And they played this song, and I was absolutely blown away. And somehow I got my hands on a 45 RPM of Let It Be and took it home, and I had my own little white record player. And I was obsessed with this song. It just like catapulted me into, like, a whole new understanding of, like, what life is. 

 

Music  04:37

[Let It Be by The Beatles plays]

 

Orna Guralnik  04:51

My dad was both a classical pianist and an aerospace engineer, and my mom was a contemporary art curator. I mean, they had very deep interests in the arts, so our life was kind of saturated with music and literature and art. But my dad thought that anything but classical music is absolute garbage. And he did not allow me to have pop music at home. It was just like trash. Forbidden. And I had to hide my record -- like, he wanted me to throw it away. I hid it under my bed. That was my first stash of private stuff -- was my Let It Be little record, was under my bed, and when he wasn't home, I would listen to it. 

 

Sophie Bearman  05:39

I know that parents sometimes might be upset to learn that their children have all sorts of secrets, hidden stashes. But of course, developmentally, I imagine that's actually quite important for children -- and even adults, right? -- to have secrets. Why aren't secrets always a bad thing? Can you speak about that a little bit?

 

Orna Guralnik  05:57

 Why are they not a bad thing?

 

Sophie Bearman  05:59

Yeah, because -- why is it important to have stashes? 

 

Orna Guralnik  06:01

Super important. Because it's really important to have an interior life. You want to be in relationship with the world, as a child. You want to be in a good relationship, an influential relationship, with your parents, with your peers. But it's really important to have an inner world, like a psychic world of your own, which requires the assertion of certain kind of boundaries between you and the world so you can differentiate yourself from the world. So all these like private stashes, you know, they're they're symbolic of like having an inner world that is not in direct communication with the outside world, but a place for you to have your own experiences. And that's certainly what it was for me.

 

Sophie Bearman  06:46

Your family moved from Atlanta to Tel Aviv when you were seven. And your next song connects to that time in Israel, and it's also a song -- unlike the first -- that is shared with your father. So what did you choose and why?

 

Orna Guralnik  07:02

Well, I think when I was making my list, I was like when I was thinking about my dad's difficulty with pop music. I mean, I used to listen to music with my dad a lot, not only classical music, but very specific classical music. And I was remembering that at some point there were a few pieces of music while I was growing up that suddenly, like our tastes converged, like we could find each other in it. And for this, I chose The Rite of Spring. You know, Stravinsky had -- was a modernist and there were a lot of, like staccato, really intense kind of changes of rhythms that were, in a way, closer to what I loved about popular music. I mean, The Rite of Spring is just such an interesting piece. It's such a mixture of different genres, and anyone can find themselves in it, if they really listen.

 

Music  07:54

[The Rite of Spring by Igor Stravinsky plays]

 

Orna Guralnik  08:13

Amazing. When Stravinsky came out with The Rite of Spring, he was booed out of the theater. I mean, it was like so radical is music. 

 

Sophie Bearman  08:21

Tell me a little bit about each of your parents.

 

Orna Guralnik  08:24

I mean, both of my parents are, like, complex -- I mean, like many people, they're complex beings. I mean, I also had a complicated relationship with them, because I'm a pretty fierce minded independent spirit, and they were too. So it was not an easy household for all of us to share, which is probably very much related to the profession that I chose eventually, which is all about kind of negotiating differences.

 

Sophie Bearman  08:52

I think I read that your parents' relationship -- like many couples' -- wasn't always perfect. And as a kid, you sort of observed their couplehood. How did that inform the work you do as well?

 

Orna Guralnik  09:06

Well, they were both really strong personalities. And I was growing up, you know, in the 60s and 70s, where really what unfolded in front of my eyes was like the feminist revolution, where they both had very strong careers, but they were emerging out of the 50s into, like, a much more progressive time, and really struggling with it. And I watched their struggles, and kind of as a kid, I identified with each of them, and tried, in my mind to, like, figure out, 'How do they navigate these differences?' Like, who's going to take the car? They had one car for many years. Like, who's going to take the car in the morning? Who gets to drive the car versus take public transportation? And how do you negotiate that based on what? Is it based on patriarchy? Is it based on who's bringing in the money? Or is it just based on some idea of fairness? Stuff like that. You know, and then also I can add to it that I was also growing up at a time where Israel was negotiating its differences with its neighbors. So in a way, I mean, like many of us, like, my life was marked by observing very complicated conflicts and differences and trying as a kid to figure it out, like, 'What's the right thing to do? What's the right way to resolve it? How do you get back to a state of harmony?' 

 

Sophie Bearman  10:28

I come from a family of divorce, and just hearing you articulate the sort of structural and societal things that were happening that influenced their relationship is making me think I should go back to therapy, because I just look at it and I'm like, 'I don't know what happened.' 

 

Orna Guralnik  10:45

Oh, interesting. Kids, they look at their parents to understand what the world is. It's a lot of figuring out that children do growing up. A lot of figuring out.

 

Sophie Bearman  10:56

Your next song -- it's Lou Reed's Coney Island Baby from his album with the same name. When were you listening to this?

 

Orna Guralnik  11:04

That was my early teens. You know, like any teenager, I was like -- my life was a lot about my friends, especially in Israel. Israel is like a super social. People live in communities, basically. And I had this friend, Meesh -- had two, really, really good girlfriends. And with all of my friends during that time, music was like the thing we were doing. I remember we used to gather at Meesh's house and listen to music. Coney Island Baby was one of those albums that we listened to over and over and over. And Meesh would like, hold court and basically lecture to us about Lou Reed and about like, the meaning of these songs. And like, I think I became a teenager -- a real teenager -- listening to those albums.

 

Music  12:17

[Coney Island Baby by Lou Reed plays]

 

Orna Guralnik  12:19

So moody.

 

Sophie Bearman  12:19

What does it mean to become a teenager?

 

Orna Guralnik  12:23

That's a really great question. I know what it feels like, but what does it mean? Let's try to put it into words. It's like you're leaving the, the more naive experience of the world, of a kid who depends more and is more naive in their expectations. And you move -- for many of us, it's moving into like the world of sex, drugs and rock and roll. I mean it in the sense that the world suddenly becomes a lot more -- your experience of it is a lot more edgy, with way more questions about where you come from and what do you believe in. You're shedding a lot. You're sloughing off a lot of what you knew your whole life till then. And you're exposed to much more raw kind of feelings, intense emotions, a lot of hormones. I was one of those teenagers that was a lot more both impulsive and rebellious, and I questioned a lot of what was around me. And that kind of music, like Lou Reed, was just very helpful in that way. It gave language to those feelings. Music was very helpful that way.

 

Sophie Bearman  13:35

Your next song is A Last Straw by Robert Wyatt. This one is also connected to your teens, maybe your later teens?

 

Orna Guralnik  13:42

Yeah, that was a later phase of my teenage years. And that's when, again, I would spend a lot of time with friends. We would -- it's kind of sad to me that people don't do that anymore nowadays -- but you know, this was still the era of vinyl, so we would sit together and listen to albums, side A side B, from beginning to end. We would just sometimes get high. I mean, it was Israel, so it was hash, and just spend a whole night listening to albums. And it was just epic, really epic. And Robert Wyatt was just like a dream.

 

Music  14:21

[A Last Straw by Robert Wyatt plays]

 

Orna Guralnik  14:41

Don't you think this is just amazing? Still has a complete hypnotic effect on me. You can listen to his albums from beginning to end, and you go on a journey with him. I mean, with him, with like the early Genesis or the Yes albums. I mean, I'm talking about the early albums before they became all very popular or populist in their music, but they would create these like epic journeys. The album was like a journey that you go on, and that's what we did. It was just -- was the best, and it took you away from, like, all the stresses of like school and fights with your parents, and it was just another place to go. Like an alternative reality that you could like float into.

 

Sophie Bearman  15:29

After a quick break, Dr. Guralnik shares her first experience seeing a therapist as a teenager. We'll be right back.

 

Sophie Bearman  15:59

I've read that it was during your teenage years that you had your first experience with a therapist. Can you tell me about that? 

 

Orna Guralnik  16:06

Yeah, I -- my parents didn't know what to do with me because we were really at odds. And they forced me into therapy, as many parents do with their teenagers. But luckily, they found this amazing woman. She really changed the trajectory of my life. I mean, one of the amazing things about her that I've taken in and really has become part of me, is that she had no fear of teenagers. You know, people generally are afraid of teenagers. There's a lot of dismissiveness towards teenagers, especially teenage girls, and she was nowhere like that. She loved the whole adolescent vibe. She got it. She had no fear of the intensity of teenage years. And she was also herself into like music and film, and she was a political activist. She wasn't afraid of drugs. She was just just a cool adult, and it was a really good experience. It kind of mediated between me and the world of adults in a way that was very helpful. So I'm forever grateful to her.

 

Sophie Bearman  17:16

Did you ever go back and have a conversation with her as an adult?

 

Orna Guralnik  17:20

Yeah, I did. Both went back and had a conversation with her as an adult, and also she came to New York some years ago, and I met her here in New York. And, yeah, she's great.

 

Sophie Bearman  17:32

So I understand it was a bit of a meandering path to actually becoming a psychoanalyst yourself. Two years of Israeli military service, traveling, you went to Tel Aviv University and studied film. Your next song is from that era of your life, your 20s. It's Bonjour Tristesse by Tuxedo Moon.

 

Orna Guralnik  17:51

Yeah. Do you know, do you know this band?

 

Sophie Bearman  17:54

I don't.

 

Orna Guralnik  17:55

So interesting because it's a San Francisco-based band. And in Israel, at the time, for like, the -- for the edgy kids, it was like, the band. It's like, totally the band. It was like, the coolest. And people here in the States don't know them, which I don't really understand. But they made really interesting music -- also very moody. They were like post-punk, post-new wave, very eccentric music. They came to Israel, and I don't even remember how it happened, but a few people and I ended up performing with them.

 

Sophie Bearman  18:35

And when you say, perform, did you sing? Did you dance?

 

Orna Guralnik  18:39

I danced. I choreographed a performance piece. So I did a combination of video art and movement like an interdisciplinary experience. It was very fun.

 

Music  18:54

[Bonjour Tristesse by Tuxedo Moon plays]

 

Orna Guralnik  19:10

Yeah, you get a feel for the era?

 

Sophie Bearman  19:14

Uh huh, and a big smile on your face. 

 

Orna Guralnik  19:17

It's a big smile because, first of all, I won't listen to that music now. It was just of a particular era, and it was just so -- it's more kind of searching for something than, like, solidly great music. It's just going on the edge and looking for things. 

 

Sophie Bearman  19:32

What's the story of how you got from that era to being a psychoanalyst?

 

Orna Guralnik  19:38

The trajectory is not straight from that area to psychoanalyst. First of all, it's becoming a clinician like studying clinical psych. It's actually partially due to this incredible therapist that I had that opened my mind to a certain language that helped me understand the world, and I loved it. I was interested in thinking psychologically through experience. That's part of what drew me to study psychology and then studying madness. It was very drawn to working with very mentally ill people. It was -- I just found it fascinating. But I studied clinical psych, and then actually did other things with the clinical psych degree. I did research for some years, and even did some corporate work, and only later I got into psychoanalytic training, which is like a whole other thing -- is like a whole other 10 years of studies. That's, that's eventually what I ended up doing. And I love it. It's the best.

 

Sophie Bearman  20:40

Your next song is The Good Times Are Killing Me by Modest Mouse. 

 

Orna Guralnik  20:44

Fun. 

 

Sophie Bearman  20:45

Where does this take us?

 

Orna Guralnik  20:46

I mean, we're doing a big jump here in terms of, like, history. But I studied, did my PhD, and then I had kids. So there's, like, a whole period of getting very deeply absorbed in professional life, domestic life. And I think during that time, even though I always listened to music, music kind of receded a little bit. Was just so busy with other things. And then I think once I started kind of taking a breather again, there were a couple of bands that were markers for me, of like rediscovering music. And Modest Mouse is one of those bands.

 

Music  21:33

[The Good Times Are Killing Me by Modest Mouse plays]

 

Orna Guralnik  21:43

Friends and I started going to concerts to -- hearing live music again. It was sort of my gateway back into music. 

 

Sophie Bearman  21:52

And into yourself. 

 

Orna Guralnik  21:53

Yeah.

 

Sophie Bearman  21:53

Sort of a reclaiming.

 

Orna Guralnik  21:55

A reclaiming of, again, I guess that that more interior space. It's, in a way, necessary to lose yourself to your children and to domestic life. You have to. But it's great to find your way out.

 

Sophie Bearman  22:10

For your last song, we have Kendrick Lamar;s Sing About Me, I'm Dying of Thirst. Although you also gave nods to a bunch of other songs. You gave nods to Donald Glover and Frank Ocean. So I get the sense it was hard to choose. 

 

Orna Guralnik  22:21

Yes.

 

Sophie Bearman  22:22

What is it about these artists, all of them, that you love so much?

 

Orna Guralnik  22:25

I love them so much. First of all, the music is so darn good. They're contemporary geniuses. Like Kendrick and Frank Ocean and Childish Gambino. There's such a mix of genres, and it's such complex music. You know, in a way, they're the folk artists of our time, in the sense that the music and the lyrics all reference each other. There's always some kind of reference to each other in their music. And the way they like to collaborate with each other. But there's also -- their music is highly political, in the sense that there's always reference to, for example, the black experience and class.

 

Music  23:01

[Sing About Me, I'm Dying of Thirst by Kendrick Lamar plays] 

 

Orna Guralnik  23:19

Genius. Seriously. Truly. And for me personally, it's where my kids and I can connect. The three of us love the same music, which is just so fun. We listen to these artists together and just it's, it's a very good experience. And actually, going back to the beginning of our conversation that was very hard for me to find with my parents, and I just love having that with my kids.

 

Sophie Bearman  23:50

You hear a lot that people become therapists or go into mental health to try to perhaps figure something out about themselves, and if that's true, what have you figured out?

 

Orna Guralnik  24:00

I don't totally relate to that. I think for me, being a therapist and being a psychoanalyst is more about an ongoing figuring out something about existence and about the world. I mean, there's always work that I'm doing on myself, but I'm not in it to figure out myself. I think I'm more in it to keep understanding - and I don't even know if understanding -- it's figuring out or transmuting something about the nature of existence. It's one of those languages, and some people do it through the psychological, psychoanalytic language. Some people do it through music. They're trying to capture something about what it means to be alive through music. It's something about living an examined life, pondering the nature of existence and human existence. But not only human -- psychoanalysis is beyond human. It's also our relationship to the non-human world and time. 

 

Sophie Bearman  25:02

And hearing you say all that, I imagine it's really not so much about finding an answer.

 

Orna Guralnik  25:07

No, it's really the process. It's the process. Yeah. I mean tying it back to music, it's not like you hear one song and you're done. You always want to be listening to music. You're never done. You're just always in the process.

 

Sophie Bearman  25:23

So a few of our guests have said that participating in this show, picking their seven, talking about them, has felt a little bit like a therapy session. Some of them even cry and then are very surprised afterwards, sort of like, 'What just happened to me?' You know? I'm curious, because I now have an expert...

 

Orna Guralnik  25:41

It's the music. 

 

Sophie Bearman  25:42

It's the music. Why? 

 

Orna Guralnik  25:44

First of all, music is an incredibly emotional experience. Really. Music calls forth our emotional system in the most unmediated way. You know, and some people talk about the transcendence of music. There's something about it that is sublime. I think it brings out the best in us. Music. Music is also just a full on sensory memory of a time in your life. You know, it's the way Proust talks about the taste of a Madeleine. I mean, for a lot of us, it's like the sound of a certain song, you know, it opens up like a whole door of memories that you can feel very viscerally. It's very different from telling a story in words. It's just so much richer in terms of what it puts you in contact with.

 

Sophie Bearman  26:34

Dr. Guralnik, thank you so much for sharing your seven songs with us.

 

Orna Guralnik  26:38

Thank you for inviting me to do this. It was super fun.

 

Sophie Bearman  27:06

Life in Seven Songs is a production from The San Francisco Standard. Our senior producer is Jasmyn Morris. Our producers are Michelle Lanz -- she also mixes the show -- and Tessa Kramer. Our theme music is by Kate Davis and Zubin Hensler. Clark Miller created our show art and our music consultant is Sarah Tembeckjian. Executive Producers are Griffin Gaffney, Jon Steinberg and me. As always, you can find this guest full playlist at sf.news/spotify. And don't forget to subscribe and let us know what you think of the show by leaving us a rating. I'm Sophie Bearman. Thank you for listening, and I'll see you next week.