From the South Bronx to Sesame Street: How Sonia Manzano made Maria a Latina icon

This transcript was generated by AI and lightly edited by our team. Please excuse any typos or errors.

 

Sonia Manzano  00:04

When I got the opportunity to be on Sesame Street, I said, 'I'm going to be what I should have seen as a little girl.'

 

Sophie Bearman  00:24

This is Life in Seven Songs from The San Francisco Standard. I'm Sophie Bearman. My guest this week is Sonia Manzano, a.k.a. Maria from Sesame Street -- a role she held for 44 years. She also wrote for the beloved children's show, earning her 15 Emmys. Sonia is the author of a novel, children's books and a memoir. She's also the creator and executive producer of the animated series Alma's Way on PBS Kids, whose main character, little Alma, is inspired by Sonia's own life. Sonia Manzano, welcome to the show. 

 

Sonia Manzano  01:03

Well, thank you. It's a pleasure for me to be here.

 

Sophie Bearman  01:06

So I have to tell you, while preparing for this interview, I referred to you as 'Maria' multiple times. So did our producers. I can't imagine we're the first to do that, though. 

 

Sonia Manzano  01:16

No, actually, people still call me 'Maria,' and I respond to it as if they were saying, 'Sonia,' because Maria's personality and my personality are sort of one personality. And I can't say that I ever played a character on Sesame Street. I really was myself -- on purpose. And I always say that Maria was a slightly better version of Sonia.

 

Sophie Bearman  01:44

I mean, your life really did mirror Maria's, or Maria's mirrored yours, in some, I mean, real ways. When you became pregnant, so did Maria. What were some of those moments where your lives were in sync?

 

Sonia Manzano  01:58

Well, Sesame Street did a remarkable thing in that it allowed the actors to age. Usually on any television show, at that time, if the ingénue became older, they would just fire her and hire a younger person to take over the role of that particular ingénue. But Sesame Street thought that the show should reflect life. And in life, people get older, and they go through life changes. So it was with Maria. Certainly they didn't know the show was going to last over 50 years. But I reflected society when feminism was in the air in the late 60s, Maria was a feminist and got a job as a construction worker. And would get annoyed when Oscar called her "little lady." And, and then when I grew up and fell in love with my real husband, Richard Reagan, they thought that maybe incorporate that into the storyline. Because I wanted to have a baby. And they said, 'Well, this is a good way of explaining it, if it's in Sesame Street storyline.' So I became very good friends with Emilio Delgado, who played my husband. And so many times people really thought that I was married to him. One woman stopped us at an event, and she was so thrilled that we would show real love on Sesame Street. And when we told her we weren't really married, she sucked in her breath and said, 'Well, as long as you really love each other.' She was determined to believe we were a couple.

 

Sophie Bearman  03:36

Hilarious. Well, let's talk about your first song, El Número Seis by Rubén Blades, performed by Bobby Rodríguez. So you were listening to this as a kid? 

 

Sonia Manzano  03:46

Well, that is certainly one of my most favorite songs and reflected my kind of coming of age or being a tween in the Bronx. Before Rubén Blades, a lot of Latin songs' vocal arrangements were almost like an instrument. And the songs, the lyrics, didn't have real stories. But Rubén Blades put an actual story to the number six train, an icon in my life. I took the number six train to go to high school and to go to the beach, and I learned how to read on the number six train. And it's about a man singing about wanting the train to come so he could get to his beloved.

 

Music  04:40

[El Número Seis by Bobby Rodríguez y la Compañía plays]

 

Sonia Manzano  04:43

It's a very Nuyorican experience that I really appreciated. And it's always refreshing to hear something that actually exists in your life. It makes you feel seen and noticed. 

 

Sophie Bearman  05:01

So let's talk about that. You were born and raised in the South Bronx, and your parents came from Puerto Rico. Tell me about your upbringing a little bit. 

 

Sonia Manzano  05:10

Well, it was tumultuous. It was -- sadly, my household was ruled by domestic violence, so there was a lot of drama going on all of the time. And they struggled, certainly. My parents came right after World War II, at the invitation of the mainland. Factory owners would go to Puerto Rico with flyers, and they'd say, 'Come to the mainland, and we have work for you.' And they did. I mean, they made everything in New York. Hats, buttons, dresses, everything. And so they were part of that early migration. My mother's older brother came first and then sent for her, and they would pour over the dictionary and learn words that had to do with their work. So my uncle would learn words that had to do with auto repair. And my mother would learn words that had to do with the garment district -- sewing, thread, bobbin. She would learn what those words were in English, and found her way. They certainly had a hard time of it. We lived at a time when Latin people were absolutely invisible. We weren't in the newspapers or on television, and you wondered what you were going to contribute to a society that was blind to you. It was unbelievable. 

 

Sophie Bearman  06:36

You chose a song, Lamento Borincano by Rafael Hernández. How come? 

 

Sonia Manzano  06:41

That was, as you mentioned, I was born on the mainland and raised in the Bronx, and I didn't go to Puerto Rico till I was like 14. So I didn't know the island that they talked about so much. And this song kind of gave me a glimpse into their life -- a glimpse into the life that they left behind. Every Friday, they, my uncles and my father and my mother had a beautiful voice, and they'd sing it. And it's about a jíbaro, which is a peasant, and how he one day has his harvest of plantains, or whatever it is, and he's joyous, and he's going to come down into town and he's going to sell his harvest, and he's going to buy his woman a beautiful dress. And then, sadly, things go wrong. He doesn't sell what he's expected to sell.

 

Music  07:36

[Lamento Borincano by Rafael Hernández plays]

 

Sonia Manzano  08:05

That song, the lyrics and the music was haunting to me as a little kid. And it made poor people noble. How will I support my family? How will I take care of my home? It's all very dramatic and and I think kids -- or I, I loved dramatic, sad things when I was a little girl.

 

Sophie Bearman  08:29

Really, how come?

 

Sonia Manzano  08:30

I don't know. And I actually, just recently, I was reading the book review section of the New York Times, and in the back of it, there was a story about another person who loved The Little Match Girl -- Hans Christian Anderson story. And how, in the winter, this poor little girl is selling matches, and she's freezing, and she dies, and she goes up to her grandmother, who's also dead, who's the only person who loved her. And I, I loved that story. I loved to hear it over and over again when I was a kid. And I think that nowadays, people are afraid to say anything that's sad to children. And I think it really it empowers them, though. It makes them feel like part of the human existence. And it's a story. So it's, you know, it's separate from them, so it's not like you're saying, 'Let's all have a party because uncle so-and-so died.' Or you should like it. But it's just distant enough for you to feel empathy. And I firmly believe it empowers children to to be able to handle those stories. That's why I love Little Match Girl and this Lamento Borincano.

 

Sophie Bearman  09:47

You mentioned a little bit, coming from a home that was tumultuous. What exactly was going on?

 

Sonia Manzano  09:55

Well, I guess my, my father drank and he worked out his anxiety and anger by assaulting my mother every now and again. So police would come and there would be orders of protection, and then we'd move. Every time I was like, just mastering double dutch on one block, or mastering kick the can, we'd move. Oh no, I'd have to start all over again and make new friends. So there was a lot of disruption, but I firmly believe that music did put me on a higher ground. I had a cousin in a similar situation. I mean, we all knew about each other's lives, and every time the family was in an uproar or we were moving, he'd take out his bass and start playing. And I'd say, 'How can you play music at a time like this?' And he'd say, 'This is exactly the time when I'm supposed to play music.' I didn't understand it then, but I understand it now.

 

Sophie Bearman  10:54

And you also chose a song, When You Wish Upon a Star by Cliff Edwards, that soothed you.

 

Sonia Manzano  11:00

Yes, television was a comfort. I loved television, all kinds of television. It was the Walt Disney Show and Jiminy Cricket at the end of that show, would sing, 'When you wish upon a star, makes no difference who you are.' And it to me, it was so hopeful. It meant to me that anything was possible. That I could probably get out of this environment and do like Jiminy Cricket says.

 

Music  11:28

[When You Wish Upon a Star by Cliff Edwards plays]

 

Sonia Manzano  11:45

I mean, come on. What kid doesn't -- in a, in a difficult situation -- wouldn't cling on to that song and find it soothing? But that's the feeling that Jiminy Cricket When You Wish Upon a Star gave me: that there was hope and there was a future.

 

Sophie Bearman  12:04

So you're around 10 or 11, and it sounds like maybe your parents weren't the best example of what love looks like, which leads us to your next song, Please Mr. Postman, by The Marvelettes.

 

Sonia Manzano  12:16

Yes. I mean, you look to these songs for guidance, because there were no real good role models around me. I had some older cousins, and they would have girlfriends, and the girlfriends would have these huge like Ronettes hairdos. You know, they would hug their bodies as they sang, you know, 'Is there a letter? A letter for me? I've been standing here waiting, Mr. Postman.'

 

Music  12:40

[Please Mr. Postman by The Marvelettes plays]

 

Sonia Manzano  12:59

I used to watch these teen girls, their frosted lips with white lipstick, and their their painted nails, and, you know, was kind of thinking, 'Oh, is that what love is? Is that the love that I'm going to grow up to feel for somebody?' It kind of gave me kind of inklings as to the romantic life I was gonna look forward to.

 

Sophie Bearman  13:23

Ooh! At that time, what did you know? Like, what were your expectations about love?

 

Sonia Manzano  13:30

I mean, they would say things like, if somebody got pregnant who weren't married, they wouldn't tell me that sex caused pregnancy. They would say that somebody did them wrong, or they'd say, 'Well, God sent her the baby.' And I'd say, 'Well, couldn't God see that they weren't married? Why did we send the baby? Couldn't he see they weren't married yet?' So they gave you as little information as possible. And you know, if a woman worked, it was frowned upon. It's very macho society. My mother was one of the few who kind of navigated both worlds. She was the first woman I knew to drive. She worked in a factory, and none of the other women worked in a factory. So she was kind of being free and independent -- and not, by her marital situation. And then there were, you know, wayward women. So that was the other way you could be. So there weren't very many role models until the feminist movement that people -- we started to negotiate and see a third way to be.

 

Sophie Bearman  14:39

After a short break, Sonia gets her first glimpse of what she could be. We'll be right back.

 

Sophie Bearman  15:05

Sonia, you began your acting career in high school, right? Was that also part of your refuge? 

 

Sonia Manzano  15:11

Yes, first, a teacher took me to see the original West Side Story, which was really a remarkable thing to me. And it was because I saw everyday things in my neighborhood made beautiful. Like a fire hydrant was beautiful. The fire escape was beautiful. I mean, I saw these things every day, but they didn't look beautiful. So when I realized that maybe that's what art was, to take a banal thing and exalt it, I said, 'I could do something like that perhaps.' And then in junior high school, a teacher suggested I go to the High School of Performing Arts, which I had never heard of. I was ready to go to the neighborhood school. But I always tell teachers today you don't have to take the kid the whole way, you just have to point them in a certain direction and they'll go. And junior high school was, you know, I was brilliant in every way. Great student. A-student in the Bronx, because so little was expected of me. All I had to do was show up and not make any waves and and I got passing grades all the time. But when I got into the High School of Performing Arts, I was competing with kids who had been to excellent elementary schools or excellent middle schools. And I met up with the education gap that Sesame Street was trying to close. I really experienced it. It was all I could do to maintain a C average. I didn't know the difference between a debate and a fight. I didn't know how to pass a test except to memorize information. And these people were expecting more.

 

Sophie Bearman  17:00

And just for the listener who may not know about the high school you went to, this is the school that the musical Fame is based off, of course, right? And everyone there is acting and dancing. So you chose a song, I Wish I Knew How It Feels to Be Free by Nina Simone. Where does this one fit into your story?

 

Sonia Manzano  17:19

Yes, Vinnette Carroll was a well-known director. She directed Your Arms Too Short to Box with God, and she had a couple of other Broadway shows. And she was a teacher. And there was money from the government for the Urban Arts Corps, it was called, and she was the head of it. And she asked me and some other kids from P.A., and then she knew some other people, you know, from the other aspects of her life, to be part of the Urban Arts Corps. And we went through the cities, and we visited schools, and we would bring art to them. And Robert Chapman was her pianist that taught all of us that wonderful song.

 

Music  18:07

[I Wish I Knew How It Would Feel to Be Free by Nina Simone plays]

 

Sonia Manzano  18:28

Isn't that just lovely?

 

Sophie Bearman  18:30

Yeah, it's really beautiful. So how did you end up going to college in Pittsburgh?

 

Sonia Manzano  18:36

Well, I wasn't recommended to audition for any colleges, but I did have a job at a group called ANTA. American National Theater Association. It doesn't exist anymore. It was a secretarial job, and those women there gave me a recommendation to Carnegie Mellon University, and without telling the guidance counselor at Performing Arts, I auditioned on my own and got in. 

 

Sophie Bearman  19:06

On full scholarship, right?

 

Sonia Manzano  19:08

Yes. I mean, it was so reasonable to go to college in those days, and society was on my side. It was a gentler America.

 

Sophie Bearman  19:16

Another song you chose is Bang, Bang by The Joe Cuba Sextet. Where does this song bring us in your life?

 

Sonia Manzano  19:22

Well, at that time, I want to say it was like the mid 60s, and the Latin music that I listened to was mostly Cuban mambos. And then Castro took over, and all of that music stopped coming. I mean, that's what Puerto Ricans listened to was a lot of that music. That music stopped coming. Those artists stopped coming, and it was old-school kind of music, but we still loved it. And then these new kids, this new group of Puerto Ricans, came up with this new sound, which was like a mixture of the old mambos and salsas and 'Wait a minute, Mr. Postman' and new -- and R&B. It was Latin, but it had lyrics like 'chitlins and cornbread' and what was that about? You know, in a Latin song? And it was a real explosion of Latin culture and African American culture, and it was in English, which was easier for me to embrace.

 

Music  20:30

[Bang, Bang by The Joe Cuba Sextet plays]

 

Sophie Bearman  20:47

Wow. 

 

Sonia Manzano  20:48

I always think of Cuban music as being more soothing, and a lot of violins and Caribbean. And this was like the train. It's like, bang, bang. It's like, noisy and raucous. And I think it really captured our imagination. I, you know, we were like the cool kids listening to Bang, Bang, and doing the Boogaloo, which was whatever you wanted to do.

 

Sophie Bearman  21:13

You said that this one spoke to you balancing on a sort of bicultural tightrope. What was the tightrope looking like in your own life?

 

Sonia Manzano  21:23

I think at that time, it was kind of you either go one way or the other. The whole thing was, 'Work and get out of your neighborhood. Work and forget everything that you've come from and become something else.' That was kind of the thrust. Nobody said, 'Go, get an education, work, and come back to your neighborhood and contribute to it.' It was, 'Leave it and go someplace else.' So that's the tightrope that you were walking. So that when you hear a song like Bang, Bang, and it has elements of both, it's very Nuyorican, and it's a relief.

 

Sophie Bearman  21:56

Within a year of moving back to New York, you joined Sesame Street. When did you first become aware of the show, though?

 

Sonia Manzano  22:04

I saw it in 1969. I was at Carnegie Mellon University, and I, I walked into the Student Union, and there, on a black and white television was a very young, very bald James Earl Jones reciting the alphabet in a really deliberate manner, and it was so weird. I thought it was a show about lip reading or something like that. It was absolutely bizarre. And then when they cut to the street and I saw Susan and Gordon, this African American couple, they're cute and cheerful from what was known as the inner city at that time. It blew my mind, because they were like me, you know? And I had said, even though I loved television so much, I never saw anybody who looked like me or lived in a place that I lived in. And so to see black people on television was a big thing in 1969. You simply did not see it. And if you did, you would call your neighbors, 'Whoa, whoa, there's a black guy on TV. Quick.' Really. And so seeing them made quite an impression on me, and then all of those wacky animations with wonderful singing. The Wanda the Witch was exciting. It was a perfect storm. Sesame Street was a perfect storm of the times, the 60s, the Civil rights movement, the Muppets and Joe Raposo's musical talent. And it was an explosion. It'll never happen again.

 

Sophie Bearman  23:40

And you joined production in 1971. When did you start actually writing for the show? How did that happen?

 

Sonia Manzano  23:46

Well, that happened in, in the 80s. Of course, they had Hispanic culture, because I was to do for the Latin audience what Susan and Gordon did for the African American audience. And so they certainly had a curriculum that was culture-based, Latin-based. And I always questioned them because they seemed not as exciting as the other segments of the show. For example, here you go from Cookie Monster eating a table to me talking about how 'hola' is the Spanish way to say 'hello'. Which is more interesting? I bet Cookie Monster eating the table is going to be more interesting. So I would bring that up. And the producer, Dulcy Singer, you know, said, 'Okay, well, I have a great idea. Why don't you try writing some of those bits yourself?' So she really told me to put my money where my mouth was, and and I started writing. I mean, I knew the show, I knew the characters, and I wrote some bits. But before that, just let me say this for any young people that might be listening, we would have meetings, and they'd say, 'What do you think?' And I'd say, 'I think we should do this,' and they would take me up on my suggestions. That's when I knew my ideas were valid. And that's how it starts. It's kind of shoot your idea up the flagpole and see if anybody salutes it or anybody likes it. Then you know if you can contribute to a particular organization. And that's how it started with me.

 

Sophie Bearman  25:20

You became one of the first Latinas on national television, really reshaping representation in the media. What were some of the best and hardest parts of that?

 

Sonia Manzano  25:31

I don't think that one sets out to represent anybody. I think that -- I think that you just find yourself in a situation and people are a little bit lining up behind you, and that's what when you see what your your position is. And I always remembered myself as a kid watching hours and hours of television and never seeing anybody who looked like me, and when I got the opportunity to be on Sesame Street, I remembered that little girl. And I said, 'I'm gonna I'm gonna be what I should have seen as a little girl.' And so I wanted to be natural. I wanted to be real. I wanted to be sincere. I didn't want to put on an act. And they didn't want me to either. So it worked out perfectly. And I think that, you know, sincerity goes a long way -- and not trying to be someone, someone that you're not, it's absolutely being yourself. They used to put a lot of makeup on me when I first got on the show because it was mostly soap opera makeup artists at that time. They didn't really know how to do makeup for dark-skinned people that well, I think. And so I looked a little bit too perfect. And Jon Stone, the producer, came in one day, and he grabbed me. He's very angry. He got -- dragged me into the makeup room, and he said, 'I go through all the trouble of hiring a real person, and you make her look like a kewpie doll.' Well, the makeup artist was got very nervous and started taking the makeup off me. But I understood then what they wanted, and I understood what I should do. I should be myself on purpose. You know, people see me as a representative, but that's because the more sincere you are, the more people see themselves in you. I've had blonde, blue-eyed people come up to me and say, like, 'Oh, you're just like me.'

 

Speaker 1  27:43

Well, in 2015 it was announced that you would be retiring from Sesame Street after 44 years, which brings us to your last song, Sing written by Joe Raposo. Tell me about this song. 

 

Sonia Manzano  27:55

I just think it's like the most beautiful, all-purpose song. It works on so many levels, which is what Sesame Street did. It worked on very a lot of emotional levels at once. It's simple, it's yearning, it's hopeful. We'd add lyrics as we want it, there's a lyric that goes, 'Sing of how things can be. Sing for you and for me.' It's so simple.

 

Music  28:25

[Sing by Joe Raposo plays]

 

Sophie Bearman  28:47

The lyrics are so poignant, even though it is for children. It's emotional. I mean, hearing that song.

 

Sonia Manzano  28:55

Right. It's emotional. And the thing -- what's beautiful about it is you imbue it with whatever your life experience happens to be, whether you're four or 24 or 54. You see it, no matter what your age is, and that's the beauty part.

 

Sophie Bearman  29:13

How do you hear it today, Sonia?

 

Sonia Manzano  29:16

It still tugs my heart. I still I've heard it so many times, and you know, it still makes me smile, and it, you know, makes me hopeful and yearning, just like When You Wish Upon a Star. You have to have hope to keep on going.

 

Sophie Bearman  29:33

I think it's worth noting that we're speaking with you within days or weeks of the announcement about the Corporation for Public Broadcasting shutting down. You mentioned always having hope. What are your hopes for the future?

 

Sonia Manzano  29:47

It's very hard to be hopeful these days. It's a very strange, strange time we're living in. But you have to have hope. And I think James Baldwin said, 'In order to be alive, you have to have hope.' And if he can say it, and whatever he went through at his time on the planet, I can certainly say it too.

 

Sophie Bearman  30:15

Sonia, thank you so much for sharing your seven songs. This was an absolute honor. It was wonderful.

 

Sonia Manzano  30:22

Well, thank you very much. And nice talking to you.

 

Sophie Bearman  30:51

Life in Seven Songs is a production from The San Francisco Standard. If you're listening and haven't subscribed to the show yet, please do, it makes a huge difference for us. Our senior producer is Jasmyn Morris. Our producers are Michelle Lanz, who also mixes the show, and Tessa Kramer. Our theme music is by Kate Davis and Zubin Hensler. Jess Hutchison created our show art. Our music consultant is Sarah Tembeckjian. Executive Producers are Griffin Gaffney, Jon Steinberg and me. As always, you can find this guest's full playlist at sf.news/spotify. I'm Sophie Bearman. Thank you for listening, and I'll see you next week.