The music, movie stars and murder trial that shaped actor Griffin Dunne

LISS_GriffinDunne_FINAL

Sophie Bearman  00:00

Hey, this is Sophie, host of Life in Seven Songs. We're mixing it up a little bit. We want to know what songs have shaped you. So choose one song that's had a major impact on you. Record yourself talking about it, explaining why, in a voice memo and email us that clip at lifeinsevensongs@sfstandard.com. I can't wait to listen.

Griffin Dunne  00:20

Carrie would just go on about what a disaster, this movie. I said, 'What's it called again?' 'Star Wars. I have these bagels on the side of my head. This is going to be such a disaster.' 

Sophie Bearman  00:45

This is Life in Seven Songs from the San Francisco Standard. I'm Sophie Bearman. Joining me this week is Griffin Dunne. Griffin is one of those actors who seems to pop up in just about everything we like to watch. Only Murders in the Building, Billions, I Love Dick, Succession, Law and Order SVU, the list goes on and on. But it starts with starring roles in some classic '80s hits, An American Werewolf in London, and Martin Scorsese's After Hours. More recently, you might have seen Griffin in This is Us, or perhaps in the 2017 documentary he directed about his aunt, Joan Didion. She is just one of several notable writers in Griffin's life. There's also his father, Dominick Dunne, who became a famous journalist for Vanity Fair. It's no surprise that Griffin became a storyteller himself, releasing a memoir in 2024. A memoir that captures both his star-studded childhood, his star-studded friendships with the likes of Carrie Fisher, as well as the shocking and tragic event that forever changed his family. Griffin Dunne, welcome to the show. 

Griffin Dunne  01:56

Thanks for having me. 

Sophie Bearman  01:57

So Griffin, I've heard you say that you didn't want your memoir to feel like a bunch of name dropping, which I totally get. But in your case, it seems hard to avoid. Your aunt was Joan Didion, as I mentioned, Elizabeth Montgomery from Bewitched was your babysitter. You have a story about Sean Connery saving you from nearly drowning in a pool. As a kid, were you aware that this was kind of unusual? 

Griffin Dunne  02:19

No, not really. I don't think any kid is, you know, has perspective on their own lives. It really wasn't until later — you know, my father, during the heyday of his social life with my mother, gave these incredible parties. And these, you know, movie stars and great directors, I would grow to admire and study their work. My parents had given a party that was around the pool, and I didn't really know who these extraordinary people were. They were just sort of drunk adults, as far as I could tell. But I did know who the man was doing laps in the pool, Sean Connery, who I knew as James Bond. I wanted to show James Bond what I had. And I just jumped in the deep end, imagining him to be quite impressed. But I sunk like a stone. I'm down there. I realize my mistake, and I'm looking up at the adults around the pool, paying no mind to the child at the bottom of the pool. And I went, 'Oh my God, they're not going to find me till the pool man comes.' And suddenly I feel this hand lift me up by the rump and plop me onto the side of the pool. And he says, 'Oh, it's a wee bit early for the deep end, sonny.' 

Sophie Bearman  03:32

Incredible. 

Griffin Dunne  03:34

My father, as if knowing his life like this would never last, took pictures of all these parties and all these extraordinary people, and put them in a scrapbook. They would iron in these big leather-bound books, of which there are about 20, that are an incredible document of Hollywood Life from 1959 to 1967. And then I looked at it when I was just sort of old enough to kind of understand like, 'Wow, that's Billy Wilder? I talked to him? Really!' You know, and that was the beginning of my thinking of a memoir, knowing that this was rather unusual and somewhat exceptional and obviously privileged. But also that we were still a family that dealt with divorce and malfunctions that are universal. 

Sophie Bearman  04:20

Your first song is by Vicente Fernández. It's Volver, Volver. What's the story behind this song? 

Griffin Dunne  04:27

Well, my mother was half Mexican, and she was brought up on this cattle ranch called the Yerba Buena in the border town of Nogales, Arizona. My mother loved mariachi music, and when we would go to see our relatives in Nogales, we always go to a restaurant called La Roca, and they had a mariachi band. She knew every mariachi song, and she loved to stump the band. She never did. They always knew it. And this was a song she loved. It's Return to Me, Return to Me. It's an incredibly romantic song. And my mother would just get this look of swooning when she would hear it, and it was just a very happy memory.

Music  05:07

 [Volver, Volver by Vicente Fernández plays]

Sophie Bearman  05:27

Yes, was your mom a romantic? 

Griffin Dunne  05:32

She was. She loved feeling emotion, particularly about music. She would just get lost in the song. She had an enormous collection of LPs, of classical music, and Mexican music. And she really educated us. We grew up really loving classical music, which was unusual. Her love just worked on us by osmosis for all music, really. 

Sophie Bearman  05:57

I understand your parents — and you mentioned this — they divorced when you were about nine years old. How did they break the news to you? And life seems to have really changed after that. How so?

Griffin Dunne  06:08

You know, my father was a very different man toward the last decades of his life. At this time, he was, to me, kind of insufferable, very dictatorial about what we should wear and how things should look. And it was very — even as a young boy, I could tell — it was just superficial. So the time came, you know, when the parents tell the children their heartbreaking decision — and as parents do, they come up with a plan that 'It's a total collaboration, and we think this is the best, and we both agree, and all that stuff.' And so my father had the first line, and he went off script and just burst into tears and said, 'Your mother's leaving me.' And he cried. And then my brother and sister were younger. They'd never seen a grown man cry, let alone their father, and they start to cry. And I'm, like, dead inside. I'm like thinking 'This could actually work out pretty well.' So I start to fake cry, and I'm covering my eye, fingers over my eyes. And I open two of my fingers, and I see my mother is crying, and she opens her two fingers, and both our eyes are completely dry. And we both realize we're both faking it. So a bond happened between mother and son in that moment. And being the oldest, I sort of became the man of the house, as it were, and her confidant. And, you know, a lot of over sharing going on, but I felt terribly grown up to be, you know, confided in. 

Sophie Bearman  07:43

Why were you sort of okay with the divorce? 

Griffin Dunne  07:46

I thought, you know, 'We won't have to clean our room and wear the clothes we were told to wear to go to school, and, you know, won't have to go to church.' And all of that turned out to be true. Our meals went right out the window, or our seated meals. We could eat whenever we wanted, and take our TV trays and watch television with Mom and watch the Million Dollar Movie and all structure went out the window. Which I loved, you know, as a kid. But it was less fun for my dad. You know, all the people he thought were his friends kind of dumped him, you know, when he went into financial crisis. And, you know, as I got older and my mother took me in even more confidence, it became apparent she was telling me that he was closeted as well. And even though I was, you know, very young teen at that time, I had tremendous empathy for my mother to have been married for the 10 years with this secret. I don't think they ever talked about it, but it was a secret that was just — and it was a sort of atmosphere that we were — grew up in. And also how painful for my father to have kept the secret, which you know at that time could kill your career. If you're in the wrong place at the wrong time, it could — you could lose your life. It was terribly sad for both of them. 

Sophie Bearman  09:09

And in reading your memoir, I also understood that you were a little bit embarrassed of your father, or sort of — is that fair to say? 

Griffin Dunne  09:18

Yes, no. I think, you know, my father was not athletic. My best friends' fathers were movie stars who played lumberjacks, and they always say 'My dad could lick your dad with one hand tied.' Yeah, he could lick my dad with two hands tied behind his back. So one day, I just told everybody at school, 'My dad robbed a bank and was in jail.'

Sophie Bearman  09:41

Just to kind of seem cool.

Griffin Dunne  09:43

Just to show you know, what a tough guy he was. And this lie went through the school like smallpox. And the principal called my dad. Went, 'Oh, you're out.' He goes, 'What do you mean?' 'Well, I your son told us about the bank.' You know, my dad called me into his room and said, 'Is that something you'd like me to do? Rob a bank?' And quite honestly, yes, I would have loved it. But you know, that kind of just shows this little boy embarrassment, you know? 

Sophie Bearman  10:12

Yeah, well, the next song you chose is tied to a memory just after your parents divorce, I believe. It's Last Train to Clarksville by The Monkees. So what memory does this song evoke? 

Griffin Dunne  10:23

When they divorced, the first summer, my mother went to Coronado Island, which is off San Diego. We had a house. My mother had been going there as a child with her grandmother, so we were there for the summer. And this song was on the radio over and over which I love.

Music  10:43

[Last Train to Clarksville by The Monkees plays]

Griffin Dunne  11:01

On Coronado Island is a Navy base called North Island, and the jets would fly right over our house, really, really low. And my mother dated a jet fighter pilot. Which was, like, the coolest thing I could ever imagine. And about as much of a contrast to my own father as could be.

Sophie Bearman  11:19

As macho as possible, yeah. 

Griffin Dunne  11:21

Yeah. And this guy would fly over the house, and he’d tip his wings as he would come. And I just idolized the guy. And I remember this song was playing, and I'm just chatting away to him and just telling him, like, you know, wanting to know about the planes. And I said, 'Oh, this is the Last Train to Clarksville. This is my favorite song of this thing.' And he turned to my mother and said, 'What's it going to take to get this little brat out of here?' And I was so stung, and my mother kicked him out, and she never saw him again. 

Sophie Bearman  11:52

I love that your mom also sent that guy on the last train. 

Griffin Dunne  11:55

That was it. He sent him on the last train. I hadn't thought of that.

Sophie Bearman  12:00

So I'm curious, did your parents divorce impact your relationship with your siblings, potentially bring you guys closer or, or cause a divide? 

Griffin Dunne  12:10

It didn't certainly cause a divide. We always loved each other, and we're very close. And but — my grades were terrible in school. I was considered, like, rather stupid. I — turned out I had dyslexia, so I was sent away. You know, at 11, I was sent to this boarding school in Massachusetts. It was all boys and very, very strict. On top of that, I had to repeat a grade. So I was — you know, had kind of that humiliation of being with kids younger than me. My brother and sister were, you know, in California, and I was 3000 miles away. So I was distant from really, everyone. I became very self sufficient. You know, the school was so strict you had to lie, cheat, steal to get away with anything. So I kind of got a cons mentality. It's sort of like that thing where someone is sent to a prison for a minor infraction and comes out a hired killer. So I was, I was somewhat removed from my siblings and parents. 

Sophie Bearman  13:13

So you actually chose a song that speaks to your teenage years. Maybe when you're in boarding school. It's Nature's Way by Spirit. How does this song fit into that time in your life? 

Griffin Dunne  13:24

My best friend, we met when I was home on vacation from this boarding school, and became immediate best friends. We would hitchhike everywhere, and we were taking drugs at quite a young age. We were 13 and 14 and taking acid and getting into all sorts of juvenile delinquent type trouble. And this band called Spirit, we passionately loved, and we went to see them in concert. We each got a girl to take who could care less about us, but just wanted to see Spirit. We were 14. We called a cab, took us to the concert. We dropped acid, and we — the four of us — watched this concert, and it was on a revolving stage. I still to this day, don't know where it was. And it was just a magical evening. Sorry to condone drug abuse at such a young age, but, but this was my, my early teens, favorite, favorite band.

Music  14:22

[Nature's Way by Spirit plays]

Griffin Dunne  14:46

Great breakup song.

Sophie Bearman  14:49

Were you into girls at that time?

Griffin Dunne  14:51

I was very much into girls. I went to a boys school. We weren't allowed to see girls. There was two dances with girls at a girls school. These dances, where — both schools we were kept from the opposite sex so we would, you know — when the bus was going to arrive to take them back, we'd all rush into the woods and just start making out. 

Sophie Bearman  15:12

So you mentioned earlier that your mother loved classical music, and that connects to your next song. You picked Mahler's Adagietto, from Symphony No. 5. Tell me why you picked this one.

Griffin Dunne  15:23

Fan is too lightweight a word for how she felt about Gustav Mahler. She had a box set of every one of his symphonies. She had a bumper sticker on her Chevy Nova station wagon that said 'Mahler Grooves.' And there was a Mahler-thon that took place once a year in Laurel Canyon, and it started at six. And you go into a house and it had nothing but mattresses in the living room, and these other Mahler freaks, and they'd all lie down, and they would play everything Mahler ever wrote, and it would end at eight the next morning. She did this every year. And the Fifth was really by portal into Mahler, into understanding her, her love of Mahler. 

Music  16:16

[Adagietto, from Symphony No. 5 by Gustav Mahler plays]

Griffin Dunne  16:39

After the divorce — as much as she wanted the divorce — she was quite lonely, you know, and she liked her wine, and she would drink alone and listen to this and just, just let this music just tap into her melancholy. She would just live in it. She would live in her melancholy, and Mahler was her accomplice. I could listen to that over and over and be struck by the very similar emotions that she had. It's just so beautiful, but just so heartbreaking.

Sophie Bearman  17:17

Coming up: as Griffin moves to New York and gets his first big break as an actor, heartbreak strikes close to home. Stay with us. 

Sophie Bearman  17:25

Okay, so you end up in New York City. Tell me how your acting career began. 

Griffin Dunne  17:47

You know, I found success as a movie producer before I found it as an actor, which is pretty unusual. I was 23 years old with my partners, Amy Robinson and Mark Metcalf, we optioned a book and turned it into a film called Chilly Scenes of Winter that Joan Silver directed. 

Sophie Bearman  18:03

So that's 23, when you find that success. But you moved to New York around 18, right? So there's what, five or so years where you're kind of struggling to make it work, basically. And I think you chose, you chose a song for this time. You chose Life During Wartime by the Talking Heads.

Griffin Dunne  18:18

Oh, yes, yes, yes, yes. 

Sophie Bearman  18:20

What was going on?

Griffin Dunne  18:21

It was a New York that doesn't exist anymore. This makes me think of Times Square, the pimps and the porno theaters. And, you know, New York was broke, and I was broke. It just captured, like, this crazy energy of the city at that time, and I didn't have headphones. There wasn't a Walkman to be had. But this would be — as I'm strutting up 42nd street — I was doing an off Broadway play that was off 42nd street, and this was —

Sophie Bearman  18:54

This was the score, it would be the score. 

Griffin Dunne  19:00

This was the score. 

Sophie Bearman  19:05

Got it. 1979, Life During Wartime. 

Music  19:11

[Life During Wartime by Talking Heads plays]

Griffin Dunne  19:19

So good. 

Sophie Bearman  19:20

So, while you were living in New York, you lived with a friend of yours, Carrie Fisher. and most of us know her as Princess Leia in Star Wars, among so many other roles. How did you and Carrie first meet?

Griffin Dunne  19:33

My brother, Alex, came home one day and he said, 'I met this girl, and I'm in love with her, and I'm going to marry her.' You know, my brother was just the most soulful, intellectual, spiritual person. He was reading philosophers at a young age. He felt everything so deeply. And I said, 'Alex, don't come on so strong. You know, don't tell her you, you love her.' He says, 'She has to know.' I go, 'I don't think she does.' And pointed to me and goes, 'You don't talk to her. Don't do that thing you do.' I go, 'What?' 'That Charles Boyer thing, making her fall in love with you.' And so she came to the house, and you know, my mother and sister and I were trying to be quiet. And you know, I was trying to be quiet. My mother —

Sophie Bearman  20:21

Stay out of the way.

Griffin Dunne  20:22

Stay out of the way. But Carrie was hilarious. It really tapped into the — my sense of humor. I mean, it was just so hard to keep my mouth shut. I just had to rat-a-tat for every line she had, you know, and you know, when she found out my my sister's name was Dominique, she started to sing what her mother sang Debbie Reynolds when she played a nun, Dominique-anique-anique-anique — that's the one I should have chosen, actually, for Carrie. And then suddenly, we're all singing and just butchering the song. And we're all roaring with laughter. My brother was a little mystified, and saw he was losing ground here. And my mother told me to drive Carrie home. So we're heading to the car, the same Chevy Nova with the 'Mahler Grooves' bumper sticker, and — and she gets into the driver's seat. And I go, 'What are you doing?' 'Teach me to drive.' And she just takes off and drives up people's lawns, and that was it. We were best buddies. And, you know, remained friends on our move to New York. We ended up getting an apartment together, and so then we were roommates. You know, she was the very first person I ever knew who became famous. Like, overnight, globally, mind blowing, famous. You know, I was still struggling. I was like a popcorn concessionaire at Radio City Music Hall. Suddenly, you know, every rock star and movie star of the time was in our apartment. I couldn't handle it. People treated me differently, and everybody was trying to get to me to get to Carrie, and so I moved out. I had to get my own — it wasn't my time to know all these people.

Sophie Bearman  22:07

Did she have a sense she was gonna, you know, get crazy famous when she got cast? I'm sure she, you know, called you and told you?

Griffin Dunne  22:13

Absolutely the opposite. She would — she would call me from London, to wake me up with the time difference, and just go on about what a disaster, this movie. Star Wars. 'I have these bagels on the side of my head. We run around with these guns that don't even have triggers, and a big ape is following us, and there's a little man and a trash can rolling along, and this is going to be such a disaster.' And we went to the first screening it was ever shown to an audience at the Ziegfeld Theater. And it was very clear it was going to change movies forever. You know, three stars were, were born that night.

Sophie Bearman  22:56

Well, she became a superstar in — what was that, 1977. But it was, it was — it was just a few years later that you had your first big break, right, with An American Werewolf in London. How did that part change your life?

Griffin Dunne  23:08

I wasn't really kind of aware of, sort of, the — the change. I didn't even read for the part. I just sort of talked to the director, John Landis, and he gave me the part. I understood the script. I understood the, the character completely. We had a very similar sense of humor. But it was like, suddenly, I'm on the Concorde, flying to London to shoot, and then shooting every day. I'd never had a part so big. But the movie was not a huge hit. It wasn't like a Star Wars thing by a long shot. People, really, critics were confounded and even offended that there would be both humor and horror in the same — these two genres, they didn't believe they could work until, then, they saw Ghostbusters and they went, 'What's brilliant about Ghostbusters is they combined humor...

Sophie Bearman  23:54

Right. 

Griffin Dunne  23:54

... horror.' But it didn't catch on at the time.

Sophie Bearman  23:58

So, around the time that An American Werewolf in London came out, that was also around the time that you received a call from your father, 1982. Can you tell me about that call and what had happened?

Griffin Dunne  24:12

He called me very early in the morning — having just gotten off the phone with my mother, who had been in the room with a homicide detective in Los Angeles — to say that her daughter, my sister, was in a coma on life support, having been strangled by her boyfriend, ex-boyfriend. She dumped him, and he'd come back and he attacked her, strangled her, and she was on life support. My father called to — called to tell me that. And it took a moment to digest what he said, what he was saying. And I — 'Wait, did you say homicide?' So I rushed right over. And I went and got my brother, and you know, we all took the next plane to, to California. You know, I helped dad pack, and I remember him — she was, you know, alive. And he pulled out a dark, black suit, and he said, 'I don't know if I should take this or not.' Meaning, 'would it be a funeral?' I said, 'I don't, I don't know.' And he packed it. And so she was on life support for five days, and you know, we had to take her off.

Sophie Bearman  25:28

So sorry, that's so painful. And you chose a song that reminds you a little bit of your sister, Sailing by Christopher Cross. Let's listen to a little bit of it, and then you can tell me why. 

Music  25:41

[Sailing by Christopher Cross plays]

Griffin Dunne  26:00

My sister, she loved Christopher Cross, this song. And even though it is a very beautiful song, we would always tease her. You know, she had a — just a soulfulness of... she was just taken with songs that sort of pulled at your heart. But that one was to this day, always gets me, you know, and it just reminds me of the three of us.

Sophie Bearman  26:22

Can you tell me a little bit more about her? Like, what was she like?

Griffin Dunne  26:26

She was, uh, so sure of herself from such an early age. A little bossy. Would, you know, boss my brother and I around. An animal lover like you never knew. We had two dogs and three cats. All of them were strays that Dominique had picked off the street. But I think the word got around that she was — they would just show up at her door. And the day she decided to become an actress, I was struggling in New York and doing everything but acting. She called, filled with excitement to tell me the news, and I said, 'Oh God, don't do it. It's the worst profession. Oh, it's so awful.' And she was so angry that I didn't support [her]. And I said, 'It's just going to take a really long time.' I think within a month of her calling me, she was on a soundstage in a TV movie. It was called Diary of a Teenage Hitchhiker, and she was playing the teenage hitchhiker. She was the star, and was enormously talented. And everyone, everyone who met her, saw it. And you know, much loved. Much loved girl.

Sophie Bearman  27:39

Did you attend her killer's trial?

Speaker 1  27:42

Every day. Every day. It was very rough, and every day we went there the defense was doing the 'blame the victim' thing, so we had to hear that. Anytime that jury would hear about prior incidences of violence, they were sent out of the room by this confounding judge, and they came back with a verdict that was — well, he was out in three and a half years. Not even for murder, for manslaughter. It was shocking to not just us, but to everyone who read about it. But it was, you know, the demarcation of all of our lives. You know, where nothing ever was really the same. Nothing looked the same. You never had — things you never thought about, you know, domestic violence and injustice in the courtroom and victims' rights. My mother became an activist who started her own victims' rights group called Justice for Victims of Homicide, and they changed laws. Created laws. They're instituted in 25 states around the country. We... all of us, but my parents in particular, always made the — you know, the public know about what goes on in the courtroom when a woman, particularly women, are raped and killed. And how that is turned on them. And it's evident in every article my father wrote, who became a crime reporter, and you know, he wrote about the Simpson trial. He never let you forget. I guess they — rather than succumb to the tragedy, they, they found a purpose in it. And for you know, the past 40 years, I've been active in one way or another with gun violence prevention.

Sophie Bearman  29:24

Tell me about your next and last song. It's Cortez the Killer from Crazy Horse and Neil Young.

Griffin Dunne  29:31

It's a lesser known Crazy Horse Song, but it just has... that guitar sound just hits me deep and the way it just weaves in and out, and the — the somber rhythm and the movement of it, is just a great driving song and a walking song. And the mood it evokes, it has an infinite quality to it. It has no beginning and no ending. It's almost like a mantra. Just that thick, velvety sound that Crazy Horse had with that guitar, I just never tire of it. It just evokes a feeling that I like to carry around. 

Music  30:07

[Cortez the Killer by Crazy Horse and Neil Young plays]

Sophie Bearman  30:30

You wrote us that this is one of the songs that you play all the time as you walk the streets of Manhattan, even to this day. And I'm curious: what's on your mind these days when you're playing music like this and walking the streets? What are you thinking about?

Griffin Dunne  30:43

I'm thinking about other people. I mean, I'm an observer. I'm an eavesdropper. I think visually. That's why I like directing movies. And I kind of look for inspiration, for — imagining other people, how they got to... 'How did that guy end up in a wheelchair?' and 'That guy's still in his underwear,' or, you know, 'Oh my god, that couple, they're so in love, but I don't think they're going to make it.' You know, just giving everybody little biographies. And I do think about story a lot. I had great teachers. We grew up hearing, you know, absolutely absurd, crazy, funny things that — when I decided to write the book, years before I actually did, I would always jot them down. I could keep a file of, of stories I heard: either being told, or things that... pretty crazy things happened to me too, and I'd make note of that, and I'd let them all pile up until I was sort of fecund to take on a book.

Sophie Bearman  31:43

But your memoir, it stops at 34 right? So there's a lot. How come? I mean, is there a Part 2 coming or...

Speaker 1  31:50

Well, I wasn't thinking that. And I did think, you know, one point, you know, I was like, on page 250 and I was still 13 years old. I thought, 'I gotta bring this in.' What's, you know, I had no idea how I was going to end it. And I got to the part where my daughter was born, and Hannah was cesarean — born cesarean, so they gave me my daughter, you know, fresh out of the womb, and put me in a dark room. It was like a little tube to clear her nose passageways, and it was very, very dark. And I am writing this, and I'm — and I'm remembering this incredibly powerful feeling of being visited. And I was very convinced it was my sister. I could feel it, and I could — this 15-minute-year-old child could feel it, and just started to sort of smile. And I'm writing this, and I kind of got a little emotional writing it. And I just took a breath, and I went, 'Wow, I opened the book with death. I'm ending it with life.' I'm done.

Sophie Bearman  33:09

That's a beautiful story about your daughter and, and Dominique. Griffin, thank you so much for sharing your seven songs with us.

Griffin Dunne  33:17

Thank you for asking. Thank you.

Sophie Bearman  33:44

Life in Seven Songs is a production from the San Francisco Standard. If you enjoyed this episode, you might want to check out our conversation with Jay Blakesberg. He didn't grow up around stars, but, as a legendary rock photographer, he's been documenting music icons for nearly 40 years. Also, if you haven't already, please subscribe and like the show. It makes a huge difference for us. Our senior producer is Jasmyn Morris. Our producers are Michelle Lanz — she also mixes the show — and Tessa Kramer. Our theme music is by Kate Davis and Zubin Hensler. Clark Miller created our show art and our music consultant is Sarah Tembeckjian. Executive producers are Griffin Gaffney, Jon Steinberg and me. As always, you can find this guest's full playlist at sf.news/spotify. I'm Sophie Bearman. Thanks for listening and see you next time.